<p>[Music] hello everyone this is Cole from the American Journal of healthcare strategy and here with me is Josh Papas Josh please introduce yourself hey there Cole welcome thanks for having me I am Josh papis I lead sales and growth here at kugi and excited for the conversation today we're so happy to have you on you've had a really interesting career uh all the way starting back at UNCC Charlotte which is also where I got my start uh as in my educational career so why don't we just kind of start from there and and go all the way through to where you are now what was your degree in and what led you to to make those decisions early on yeah it's it's always interesting because I actually grew up in the Chapel Hill area right so uh tar Hills Blue Devils Wake Forest I was always the odd kid that was Wake Forest fan right so I did a little bit of the opposite where I would have loved going there but I actually went to uh to Charlotte it was you a little bit further away from home and I'm enjoyed it and so I was a part of sports my whole life you know thought about going maybe somewhere a little bit smaller up in the Northeast it was too cold they showed all those you know the pictures of the football and the basketball stadium when it was snowing I was like oh that that doesn't sound like it's for me so found a home at UNC Charlotte was involved in the basketball team my first couple years at there thought that that was the career trajectory to you know kind of be involved in sports it was all I knew maybe coach maybe getting on the admin side and woke up one day and said you know what this is a big time commitment I love it but I don't know if this is what I want to do for the rest of my career right and so kind of was a student student only for the first time my Junior and Senior year right because I kind of had that regimented Sports school and so admittedly that junior year the first semester that I did it let's not you know go back to that transcript and see some of those grades cuz I probably had too much you know flexibility but uh figured it out and kind of was in an interesting Crossroads where I you know had to take some certain courses from a Athletics perspective and so I kind of would have been a year behind if I did this a year behind so I uh pushed forward got my degree in education had a lot of really great um experiences student taught fifth grade got to see lots of different areas and as I was graduating um it was somewhat of a you know SA career path I could have you know got it started and I was certainly at peace with it maybe starting different um you education routes but had a unique opportunity and interviewed I would say 50% of my time outside of Health Care sales or outside education sales kind of you know leverag my network to figure out what else was out there and you know really got a cool opportunity uh interview and had a cool opportunity to break into Healthcare sales uh with a big pharmaceutical company so so that was my forway from there into into Healthcare so because you started that uh teita right yeah so I got a cool opportunity with uh teada at the time quintiles which is now you know since rebranded and uh the long story short of that opportunity was you kind of by by a little bit of a combination of luck virtue they were really looking for teada was an established pharmaceutical company they had a lot of really tenen tenure sales reps and so they kind of tasked quintiles with let's find you know nationally for this project some wild cards right folks that maybe had other industry experience didn't have Farm experience in some cases didn't have any business experience and I guess I was right place right time they I think out of that cohort of 200 there was like five or six of us that had no experience right uh just kind of came straight out of school and so I definitely was excited to you kind of get the opportunity but um was really fantastic from a the two main areas there that I'm really fortunate is one I got to be a part of a really senior uh Team there at teada and quintiles right folks that had been in the industry for 2030 plus years uh both on the you know industry side but just the healthc care side that was number one but probably even more valuable was number two of uh got a fantastic training program and then started my career on the healthc care side of if anybody knows Pharma of going into doctor's offices talking with Doctor front office and really seeing in lots of different areas big and small provider group to the health system how really a doctor's office and the whole medical world worked in and out right and so I'm really thankful I'm sure we'll get into it later I'm really thankful for that opportunity because it really allowed me daytoday to see how all of this worked I definitely know that perspective from the other side working in a doctor's office with the sales reps coming in it does seem like a very challenging role for a lot of areas but it also seems like a unique role in the healthc care space so I think that's why our audience is really going to appreciate your message is because there's these traditional roles that everyone thinks of in healthcare you know nursing being a physician being an administrator and a lot of our audience are are mha candidates but they're looking for alternative roles outside of the hospital but also still involved with health care and still getting that knowledge about healthare and that's really what your your path is so you spent uh about a year and a half there and then you transition to Alpha genomics right yeah yeah so great that role or you know how did that transition happen yeah so I I think that's the hardest even when I chat with folks as you mentioned right which we can we can get into but one of the hardest things for healthcare I know it seems cliche is somewhat of breaking into it right and there's no you know I was fortunate to do that and um obviously the nice part about some of the mha and folks is they've done some of the hard part which is being a part of the wavelength from a healthc care perspective and I basically realized that amazing opportunity with Pharma I enjoyed the sales aspect of that and uh at at the time Pharma was a much different version of sales right it was much more you know frequency chatting with folks building relationships but it wasn't necessarily the uh the the sales kind of Hunter type sales role that I was looking for at least in there and that's where the the best way to describe it is I was in and out of different different doctor's office one of the medic ations that I had was a GI medication for GI induced constipation right so I I used to joke I talked to I helped launch an anti-depressant and depression so uh really would walk around in my Ford Fusion and talk uh depression and constipation all day right which is kind of healthcare joke only that nobody else would get they look like I was crazy at a bar or anything like that but uh ended up chatting with some folks that were on the device side thought that that was the next PATH it didn't work out that way but what did work out is staying connected and having a good relationship with those pain doctors and they said hey you know this guy's up and coming you know asking some questions understanding what was those roles outside of what I was just doing uh and basically had some former Boston Scientific device you know R Executives that kind of got a little bit more into Diagnostics biotech genetics side of the business and um essentially was uh connected with those folks and really had an opportunity I would say to get in on somewhat of a you know more startup right but not necessarily like you see these software based startups it was it was really an opportunity to take kind of a disruptive you know product that was covered by Medicare in the genetic space and basically work with physician practices in multi- different Specialties areas on driving adoption for these more preventative uh cancer testing or pharmacogenetic testing for me from a sales perspective I was kind of given an opportunity at shoot I was 22 23 to have my own territory take something in Market knowing a little bit about what happened but but really having some of those conversations at a regional basis to start from you know something from zero to you know kind of eventually worked with lots of Physicians managed a team of five or six clinical folks I I think there's probably some impostor syndrome esque of like what do I do what do I know but it was a little bit of it wasn't a sexy like cold calling or process it was showing up the doctor's office that might fit the bill talking bringing in lunch understanding where their challenges was understanding this was a small part in their overall um Arena but from a sales perspective got to really good opportunity in kind of a three to four year period of starting something literally from scratch and um kind of generating revenue for the business um helping manage grow something manage a team and uh be a part of that and so that was a really cool experience um that really unlocked a lot of there wasn't a lot of middlemen right there wasn't a big company and here and there it was you know our company our product our solution and working with the doctors to go from zero to uh kind of grow a really great U product helping out a lot of patients and and working with the organizations there right and then at 20 you know 23 or 22 that's an incredible learning experience as well that most other people won't get the opportunity to have at that young age and so what I wonder is you said that a lot of it was kind of the connections you developed in order to get that role right did you actually send in an application or was it all based on like you know people you knew yeah this this particular example was was was really based on um interviewing interviewing for a role actually at Boston Scientific obviously massive company so interviewing at Med device rooll going through that probably didn't have the qualification even with that one it was doing the formality of it interviewing for a role it was like a field marketing role which wasn't what I wanted to do but that was my tra went through a a four or five you know interview process um you know again of a friendly of folks that I knew um and that's a perfect example actually didn't get that job because after all of that it went to a decision maker who I was less connected with and they went with somebody who had more marketing experience right but again I always say it's it's a great that was a great way to go through that process you know and do that and they said hey it's just not a time or fit now but because of that process process um basically when they were you know going and this another opportunity come up they thought about expanding to Charlotte I was on a short list of folks that they called so they actually called me out of the blue said hey got your number from X Y and Z would love to meet and understand they vouched for you right and so yeah it's I I I usually say there's no recipe for that it's kind of hard when folks are looking at it like uh but it's also not necessarily like hey knowing all these connections is just going to be an easy way to get um you know to get a job as well it's kind of a little bit of putting yourself maybe in a if if you want to transition or do that chat with folks first so that you're not wasting their time have a point of view around it and then um and then maybe have some of those uncomfortable experiences where you're going in you're doing interviews maybe you get two or three NOS but in my case the no turned into um you know vouching for me and then getting in the interview process that's really where I I was pretty confident if I could just get in the interview process then I could maybe showcase or do that and there's no sure things but that's kind of how that materialized is a no through a formal process too um and that is a big advantage of some of the smaller companies right because at a certain level you have to go through formalities and process and there is Big argu process for bigger companies so if that's something that you want to do fantastic there are some advantages there of smaller companies where it can be a little bit more agile in that regard from a process perspective no of course and I think that is the thing with bigger companies you know like when I applied through one of my positions you know I knew the the AP and the VP and I knew the CPO and you know they all knew me but then like it has to be signed off by the CFO and that's when you start you know somebody I don't know and I've never spoken with I think it's really important though that you know you're you're just getting done with college and you have You're Building these connections lots of people really struggle with building these connections especially when they go to a school that's not when the elite top 10 institutions you know at at Harvard and Stanford and Y you're being exposed to lots more you know Executives at these large companies but you know you and me went to you know a school that you don't get as much exposure to that but you still had a an excellent you know building of these connections how did you do that where did you learn that skill at that age you know that early on in your career to build these connections with these people yeah I think I had a once I was able to enter into it right I would always say that yes very outgoing but but have enjoyed creating relationships you know with folks even in college or just in general how however I think I had a lot to learn on great meet somebody see what they do and yeah if it benefits me I'd reach back up to them right and it was a little bit of getting into that I realized that you these types of connections particularly in healthcare are just so deeply rooted you know in terms of hey I worked together for 30 years right and um so what I what I did is I didn't necessarily have from a familial perspective any insight on like the business side of anything my dad taught me he was a high school basketball coach athletic director in the state of North Carolina relationship-wise taught me a lot right I mean we could go into uh barbecue place and you know Greensboro North Carolina and like my dad would see a former coach player there and it was kind of crazy and so I think the lasting relationship piece I had or i' had seen a model of that on the business side I I just think that once I got into it I realized the importance of that and I realized I had a lot to learn and so some of it was just an exploration journey of what are people doing how did they get there and then I saw in healthcare it seemed like there was a lot of inner connectivity even in Charlotte but also across North Carolina and then across you know other areas so to me the big thing that's changed is now locally it was super important but for example in Charlotte I realized that healthc care wasn't that big you know I would attend some of the the happy hours so action ability I think that go whatever you know City you are and whatever there are opportunities that you don't know about where folks are meeting convening and not necessarily in like a formal way where they're just talking about in this case Healthcare Health Care technology in any the areas right there so I would start there but the nice thing about LinkedIn and some of these other um you know modalities is if you you are in an area like I was where that wasn't front and center um then you can kind of expand that reach there and and really start with the idea of love love to learn about you your role um and and that's kind of where I saw it expand my network to outside of just what was you right right in front of me right but admittedly I didn't really have an agenda on the front end uh so some of it was I have a lot to learn in this industry so would love to to learn that way I didn't necessarily have deliverable in action I would say the 75% of the time I didn't even have an ask right other than great conversation use it in in your back pocket now and we can get we can get to it all those kind of have sometimes come full circle right and there's sometimes I would wake up and I'd have like a in-person coffee and I'm like I really want to go this it doesn't really benefit I got all these different other things that have stacked up on work but just doing it and and going I I think I've seen those you know pay pay pay it forward significantly particularly in this kind of Niche Healthcare which I'm sure you've seen as well you went up through Alpha genomics you were there for four years it seems like about every year every two years or so you got kind of a promotion there so you did really well but then you kind of start this next role at from what I see optimi oh my lights just went out okay you start this next role at optimize health and you start this as actually a senior executive role so tell us how you got that how that worked what was that like yeah so it's everybody's path journey is different I think as I got into roles experiences and leaders there was two things that happened right number one I continued to kind of expose or get exposed to whole new worlds and opportunities that were happening in healthcare right and kind of riding this accelerated wave of what was happening in healthcare as I'm sure you've seen as number one but then number two I've always had to kind of give myself a pulse check of not just staying in a health care Lane of like let me talk to people that are outside of healthare uh in this case this was around like sales right but I just wanted to almost keep myself saying on like what is that world outside of there what are people doing how are companies operating what are new spaces that exist that could be there and call it a quarter life crisis and then the other aspect as everybody can allude to at least on the business side of healthcare is things fluctuate especially if you're selling a product that has reimbursement tied to it or CMS changes you know which the majority do and you you kind of ride this I would say wave a little bit where things can Cliff there's the Heyday you and so for in that case the whole kind of genetic space just had a little bit of dip and so it didn't just affect us it affected all of the organizations and so I kind kind of saw the writings on the wall where it was a two threee period everything was successful and then you kind of have to Pivot into whatever that next Evolution was and so for me I was I wanted to get on the software side I I really wanted to kind of sell software at the time I wasn't even saying Hey I want to sell Healthcare software in fact I think if you check in with 25 26 year old Josh you would have said I want to not sell like why don't I just sell cyber security why don't I just sell a widget and take people out and you know not P my head on all the challenges to healthare but the nice thing about Healthcare right is I started on that Journey where if you can imagine I had a lot of great knowledge and and relationships in the Southeast with think provider practices right so one doc group's all the way up to there different localities Primary Care different specialy areas Cardiology and I really knew how those systems operated right what was key their pain points and so in in developing relationships you know cross functionally there and so really what happened is as I did again kind of another little exploration of software I kind of brushed up and and met a lot of uh Founders and companies I would say as these were starting to come into healthc care right of you know Silicon Valley based company that had some tech to solve x right from a doctor's office perspective and so I kind of networked with them and then I realized the the missing piece and where I fit in was they had no idea how to even give away software to free to the end user which in this case was physician practice offices right uh so a lot of those conversation I had and then the aha moment came where I I kind of started out before I joined optimize as a I use quotations on Consultants right but I started really playing kind of somewhat Matchmaker of knowing some of the challenges around you know chronic care management software trying to increase practice Revenue there I knew somebody who was involved in that let me set up a conversation and then you guys take it you know from there right so I got exposure to what was out there technology wise but then also to was able to you know add value on both ends and um that's kind of how I rolled into optimize is I you I met those team they were based out of Seattle um there was a senior leader one of their first sales hire so I joined them if you can imagine from a company size perspective there's about I think I was employee number 11 so that's about as close as you get to like Silicon Valley you know if you've seen that show on HBO like super early stage startup um but you know for me it was also a way to get into software without having to start over from a career path perspective and maybe join a software company where I had to almost run up the ladder there right and so I think there's nothing wrong with that I think it's just a little bit of a balancing so I was able to kind of enter the software in a world in space where I I already knew how it operated um and then really what it allowed me to do is kind of go on a fast-tracked MBA learning of how to sell software what software is there what is Venture Capital what is series a b CD raising money how does all that fit in right in a very condensed you know period of time all this is kind of happening in real time but the core and Foundation is I knew how a doctor's office ran I knew how they operated I knew and was able to talk with our product team that was building the solution on what was going to work or not work or what sales process going to work or not work if we're targeting doctor's offices right they don't have time to meet for zoom on 2 pm because everybody's sitting around in their home office just you know hanging out they're seeing patients right so finite time finite information and so kind of bridging all those worlds together was you know what was what I did and so there's no that was a little bit of I I kind of created my role so it's funny you say from a from a role perspective is as I've ventured and now been in the startup path uh it matters but I kind of joke call me whatever you want to call me right it it usually goes what stage are we what are our short-term initiatives what am I responsible for and chances are it's going to have six or seven things that I'm not on that title to be responsible for and so you know for me it was really a way that I wanted to enter into software had an idea of what I wanted to do and that idea never involved joining a seed stage digital Health company but it was a perfect way of me kind of you know going through that journey and so that's how ended up at optimized we were selling remote patient monitoring technology which was again the right kind of time and place right before covid there was some funding for Medicare and so it was also that's the other important consideration is joining a company where in health care it kind of is right place right time right market for who's going to pay for how they going to pay for it which I'm sure we can get into but of course you know it's interesting that it seems like like based on kind of what happened afterwards that this role really started to kind of propel your career forward a lot you know you had huge growth that you created while you were there and then you also got the of course invitation to join the revenue Collective while you were there I believe right yeah so the revenue Collective is and you're right right so I think there are some of these pivotal moments where it's really hard for folks uh it's hard to predict these but I do think that the way I look at it is how do I do my own research how do I you know kind of chat with folks and kind of company selection industry selection the timing of all that you can't you can't predict any of that but there are some kind of Entry moments where you do look back and you say wow that was really great call right place right time right that doesn't mean there's other bad decisions I don't even think up until that point it was there but not only did it work out I was in an industry that was a half to have through covid I was in a I was in a company who like went through a series you know went through a c to series a so I got to see all that and and you're right right so it propelled and then I think startup the the advantages of a startup is you wear multiple hats rolls and responsibilities and those timelines really are accelerated I mean I can't tell you like sometimes I don't recommend people doing that right out of school because it could be you know daunting especially if you can get into bad but six months a year I mean so much happened daily weekly both from my roles and respon responsibilities the exposure of seeing all those but then also to the industry in in general right and so you can get kind of a very condensed version of you know hey here's your task in big company here's your role you learn it you work your way up there's a defined path there's a hey you get to this versus having deal with so much being know cut out the noise understanding what you need to execute but in the in the process also too for there I was just soaking in all this knowledge terminology companies people um that I that I never really did and I think the connection from an mha perspective and some of the folks maybe your audience is in some ways go out and seek that out right like with somebody like me or there to just understand there is a whole other side of the world that's not for everybody because there's probably gonna be aspects of that like oh my gosh that does not sound like something I want to sign up for right but I think being being able to have that exposure to what was out there uh was was really exciting for me and and yeah basically I kind of came in was a first sales hire and created along with a lot of other folks there a process where we built up the company the sales portion of it we kind of built a process Playbook whatever you want to call it you know we did it we learned and we kind of help grow a company and so I've kind of done that kugi will be my you know fourth fourth kind of company where I've come in early stage work with the founders work with the early team to build the sales process sell the product understand how all this fits in with either a provider a health system in different areas and so I I I enjoy not only selling but the creation portion and so that was the path that that that I've you know taken right so you know the two to three year each role um in startup years is oh man uh you know could be could could be much more because there's just so much that happens there for better or worse right and and after that you consistently were first you were first sales hire at biop foris and then you became the director of sales at tendo and so you've kind of really been on the ground floor like you said consistant since then why I mean for me personally I have lots of reasons why I prefer startups compared to to Corp large corporations the biggest reason is that nothing wrong with large corporations or the people who work there but it is much more about accomplishing a task at large corporations whereas I feel like at startups it's about getting something actually done and actually producing value but why you know choose to continue to do that I'm sure that if you went to work for a consulting firm or a large sales firm you could probably make a very good salary have very good benefits so why choose to keep going the startup route yeah it's a great question you might be maybe you're my mind there because I do think that there's times where it where it es and flows and you ask yourself the same question right so I I think for me the the trajectory was always finding a company or role but for me it was it was for example optimized to biof foris was to level up and and sell into Enterprises right so similar roles responsibilities but they were pivoting and trying to go and sell software into call it health systems or in this case Enterprise which is a completely different you know sale process professional way and so for me I wanted that challenge I knew that the product was amazing for call at midmarket and provider groups this was a challenge role well funded that allowed me to do that and get that experience and also in a similar space right I wasn't starting from ground zero so I was able to transfer some of it but also learned of it leveled up in terms of where I was going and you know the the the nice part about it is is that you can have the the plans as you go into that hyper growth there can be a lot of great things about it there can be a lot of you know sometimes challenges because when you're growing at that speed and you're hiring it's just really hard hard right and so for for me you know there was some opportunities to continue to do that do it in a space outside of remote monitoring but I I I think for me I've really figured out that I enjoy working with the founders working with other companies and then throughout that too I think that the other the other misconception is when I started at optimize Health that was about as startup as you can get right um where like didn't have health benefits didn't you know was was doing there was driving you sales sales and growth right but at this point in my call it profession or personal career age ex that was fine and I had that risk tolerance right um but there there is a misconception where you know there's yes there's going to be big company big benefits big Sal big big all of those but you know throughout those roles I think that people would be surprised that from a compensation or benefits you know package even some of the earlier startup series a series B you can kind of get where you want to be right there's definitely tradeoffs I think some of it is much more of a of a risk um risk tolerance versus there but I definitely challenge people to go in and don't necessarily think that oh if I work for a startup if I'm at a big company right then I'm GNA be giving up so much and you know compensation because it's sometimes there it really has to do with to your point what do you want your days to be what do you want your weeks to be how do you measure your personal and professional success and right do you really enjoy creating and executing right because a perfect example is is that if you come from a big company there's Frameworks you're iterating you're you're you're being able to do things but chances are you're not doing things for the first time right you're not creating a template that may or may not work creating a presentation I mean for me on the sales side it seems hard to Fathom but I'm taking a contract creating the contract creating the pricing going to try to get the first iteration of that it might be right it might be not you know to sell into a health system right and so some people there's some steps for that they're like oh yeah we'll create this but send me the PowerPoint templates I'm like none of that exists right and so if you're okay doing that but I think there's some people that like the idea of a startup and then there's different you know levels and varieties to that but when you're you a super early stage you're creating you're executing so you almost need to have a different mindset of of not just there was a lot you know there's been as I've been through these startups there's a lot of idea you know people right and it's great and you need some of that the biggest challenge is is that there's no shortage of ideas uh you kind of need to have a whole team product technical um you know marketing leadership that is more of an execution mindset you need people on that team that can execute but also can execute quickly and realize that if it's wrong that's the advantage is right to ship right because I think that's the other idea too is you can't just keep on executing and be like oh let's see it out let's play it out right and so for me I've I I enjoy that aspect of it I think it's it's something you know that that I that that I've done and operated but in the various different space in the various different spaces and so I do my one advice though is that you know for folks I'm glad the framework happened there I do recommend there's no linear path but there are times where coming into a startup too early right if you're let's just say transitioning from you know mha or on the clinical side and you want to come over to the startup or you're at a big company and you want to jump in or or you know you're right out of school and want to jump in a startup I hesitate everybody's a little bit different but the challenge is there is that sometimes you don't get the training the development the foundations I feel like I got enough of the foundations right to be able to make the Judgment one way or the other I do you know sometimes especially now see some folks that are coming right out of University as like a you know bdr there and I feel bad because there's going to be some of the craziness of a startup that almost feels like it should be that way and there's just sometimes not enough time energy effort the good startups do and have good training and you know opportunities for personal development but I do think that that's the one thing I I'll caution is that if you can you know sometimes have some of those experiences where you get that Foundation then come in then you can do both but just going into it there uh to me would have been I don't know if I would have been successful had I had that path and hav't had a little bit of that two to three years of foundation uh don't know your thoughts I totally agree I you know I've been at Jefferson a while still am at Jefferson and I think easing for me easing into the startup going from a little bit of time to more and more time to now working two jobs basically is is worked well for me because I'm able to kind of see how the large corporation functions I'm able to identify strengths identify weaknesses I'm able to learn from established leaders you know able to get mentorship from CEOs CFOs and then apply that to what I'm doing I think one of the best scenarios is if somebody is Bored working for a corporation I feel like startups offer a lot more mental stimulation at least for me because of what you're saying where it's like you need to create a PowerPoint for a meeting you know we at our stage it's like what program do we use is it actual PowerPoint is it Google like all these decisions and you have to make these decisions really fast and you also people will come up with like really intense questions like that's one of the things about the startup that I'm glad also I had experience at Jefferson with is because at Jefferson you know you'll sit in a meeting and some people will have questions about your work or about the quality of your work or how you did it but when you're in a meeting with an executive for funding let's say at a startup they will throw really aggressive questions at you and you have to like really be prepared and that was something that they didn't you know teach me in in my undergrad or in business school so I think that's excellent advice and I also wanted to ask you about one of the things you had said about the salary and the benefits you know through your career you've switched every one or two years either role or company has your salary looked like this or has it been kind of like that in terms of you know going from startup to Startup yeah it's it's it's a great point and from a from from a sales perspective right and that's somewhat of an Nara because I can't speak for other functions organizations right you start to realize particularly in the startup that it's somewhat apples the oranges you know where you can't really compare right and so the framework that I've always tried to use is one the goal is is like not to go you know any steps back but you know a lot of times the way that particularly on the the commercial side you're you're joining an organization for a couple different reasons right so for me it was a a opportunity to I do think I I've been here in terms of where I wanted to go of providers into the Enterprises so I've kind of leveled up in where I felt I needed to go but some of that wasn't like a massive Financial it was just more of where I needed to feel like I needed to go from a learning curve selling different Industries getting new experiences Etc right so starting there but the sales side of it is really interesting because there's groundwork there's framework and then there's you know on target earnings and commissions you know it really is a little bit more of a high upside there's not necessarily A framework for I mean we don't know exactly what revenues are we don't know exactly how these commercial Agreements are going to be structured we have sometimes various depending on the size and stage of startup you go at you get a little bit more mature it becomes repeatability right where I've joined these organizations is some of we have to get in the door get our products into a Jefferson just however knowing it's going to take you know 12 months to do it knowing that the dollar is don't necessarily matter it's proof of concept getting there which in in some cases I know some sales folks are like well that doesn't sound any fun I like to know here's my package if I sell it and everybody sells like and if I sell X Y and Z and here's how I do it and that's how you you know make money and it's a little bit more linear right so I do think for me it was understanding that there's going to be a lot of time and your effort in learning but there's significant you know value in figuring that out and then there's a combination of you know short-term compensation commission compensation and you know what I've realized is that you know sometimes it was understanding what's defined understanding how it can be defined in upside right and then you know as you go through it and you see right it's it is a little bit it can be you know variable in a good way and then there can be some you know blockers that are valuable in a bad way but how a lot of times if you're adding value particularly in in a lot of my roles it's just it becomes really valuable for any company right the entire organization product development a lot of time investors like it can be a pressure-filled you know role but when things work and normally it's not solely because of my myself it's normally that team but once it starts to hit and work I think that there are little upsides there are things like Equity um that we can get into I've always viewed that as icing on the cake right I've never taken a role where I'm like just pay me and Sweat Equity right you know but you view it as great idea great business um if this is something in the future amazing right it's it's kind of additive as long as my core you know financial and you know goals are met I've been kind of at at peace with knowing and then once you get in there there's a million things you didn't forecast for things can change leaders can come and go advisors can come and go and so I I've always been you know of the of the belief too is your direct manager I do think your direct kind of manager leader even if I'm working like a founder or CEO the that person is gonna make a lot of the make or break a lot of the day-to- day right so if you kind of are with the leader that you don't necessarily like that that could be fine but um it's going to affect the day-to-day so knowing that ahead of time and then you know in my case sometimes that's change evolve as the business has grown evolved you've raised money and so I've also been able to kind of execute despite that um but I do like to me I've always been in a perfect situation when I'm learning from my leader outside of maybe the company or role right you start to have a different perspective on companies right and where it's less like you know I owe everything to you know the Shield right you know so to speak versus I want to do what's best for the company the business but I also want to learn things that might transcend you know this this one one one role or company and that's going to help us out at the there so little bit of a you a long wied way of answering you know it it certainly was not linear and then you start to realize um and then I think the last thing I'll add there is that you start to be okay I mean it was really uncomfortable you start being okay having very direct convers ations about things I think some of this is sales right because I know other Industries a little bit different but you're really comfortable with having very direct conversations around here's what I'm worth here's what this role is how am I you know generating Revenue how am I adding value to the organization short and long term who am I selling to am I selling to provider practices am I you know doing business with Health Systems because that's like a 12 to 24 month potential sales cycle to get one contract signature right think about the you a procurement process with Jefferson and so some of it is just being almost an advocate for yourself and sometimes things can be taboo around you know money right but particularly there you almost have to have some of these conversations and and and evolve it and be willing to say there that doesn't mean I've always been like hey I think I'm worth X I think this should be there and they're like sounds good great but being able to have the thread in conversation I think is is something that I've learned and leaders kind of taught me to do from a early start of my career because if you don't you know ask or have any of those then chances are it's probably going to continue to be status quo and I do think that you know like companies are big or small right I mean you know are trying to make business do you know going there right but I think within those you know big companies right uh there there are you know people that are are certainly you know understand that having good employees having good talent is super valuable and keeping those folks um engaged happy is is going to be the reason for Success both big or small right and I I think that goes all of that goes back to what we were saying about it sometimes it's good right out of school to learn a bit about what's going on first you know when I left school my first two jobs except the whatever salary they gave me right away no negotiation uh you know just whatever uh they gave me I said okay that sound you know sounds good and then it's also the understanding of you know when you're first out of school a lot of people are very focused on like just the money that's actually being deposited into your account they're not looking at everything else going on with the organization how they're fitting into everything so I think those are are big things that take a little bit of time to learn so I think that's very valuable you know your career path has been very planned from what you're saying in terms of the trying to go to Enterprise trying to go you know from here to there I guess what is the reason from going from kind of selling to physician practices to trying to sell to Hospital systems and Enterprise and then what is the next step for you what's coming after that yeah so I think the whole industry has like evolved overnight right where digital Health used to not be anything and then you know systems processes Industries Chang probably more in the five six years that I've been involved with it than the previous 20 years right and so some of that is just kind of being involved into there whereas there's other Industries right that um you know that that that aren't that way right that are are a little bit more accelerated and being able to do some of those so for me from a role perspective it is a little bit of staying on top of what's maybe top of M in terms of initiatives right in terms of funding in terms of um and the nice thing about it is there's just so many good resources on understanding that without I think it's a much better particularly for healthcare where you couldn't read any of that but now you can you know folks substacks folks do your own research YouTube you can learn a lot of this stuff async the onus is going to be on you to learn some of this but I do think what's changed is that you don't have to go talk to people as much like face to face you can do a lot of this absorbing by yourself on what that is have a little bit of a point of view on where you think where your interests lie what companies might work out and then I think having that framework makes you and it because it's something that I've Done Right of like talking with folks and then what you do is when you chat with folks or you're able to do that I think people resonates much more when you say you know hey I've been doing some research here I'd love to you know have this and they can either confirm say it is what it is because you have to be careful right press releases are one thing you deep dies are one thing but then it allows you at least have an understanding or a point of view and I think people like that and that conversation is normally better when you're either confirming or understanding or you know drilling down on a company or industry and so that's really what I've done and and and then from a job exploration perspective chatting with a lot of folks in my network kind when I was transitioning over from tendo to kugi i i i explored I kind of did a deep dive of talking with a lot of folks on who are a companies B leaders that they know in their Network that they would work for and then did a little bit of you know what was I looking for right in this case I wanted to you know maybe pivot out of selling just into Health Systems right maybe payer maybe digital Health it's kind of evolved maybe employer and so I had a short list of criteria and then what I did is match up companies roles you know all of that in there and then talk to people that that I that you know that that I trusted on you know a little bit of back channeling on what is a good industry what are good companies what are you know there and so I think it's a good exercise you know for folks to do if you're if you're in it it definitely is a little bit easier to have some of those but I do think that outside looking in and I always try if somebody outreaches me right to understand and have a Evolution there um normally I think if you're going into it of like hey I want to connect with somebody to maybe intro me to a high Hing manager that can be great I would view that as like icing on the cake versus understanding hey if I would apply to a role like yours in this company what would I need how would I navigate and I usually try to enjoy connecting with those folks who are proactive on the front end of you know maybe doing those and but but you you start to see is that the other thing is you have to follow through in xq because there's plenty of people that you know send that message and then don't join the call right I would I wouldn't say plenty but there are some there I know life happens and there but I think generally speaking you know folks like myself or others have been in your shoes and so if you can do that and play the long game there I think you're G to have a really good uh much more success than it's just pass or fail if I talked to this person they can't introduce me or put my resume into the you know into the queue then gone to the Wayside right you probably shouldn't reach out in the first place in my opinion so after that you know you've you've gotten all this information you've gone through this process that you know created your list of of potential targets that you wanted to work for talked with all these people then you choose kugi and honestly I didn't know about kugi until we met at our at our conference so uh even though you know they had an excellent you know year last year they raised I think 20 million right not last year but in 2022 so what made you choose this organization you know where do you think this organization is going I guess I'm just kind of interested to learn more about kugi itself Your Role there why you chose it specifically you know it is a very interesting and kind of Novel idea and maybe you could explain to the audience what exactly they do and and you know what inspired you about it yeah so a couple keyas that I'll caution is there's so much I mean once you really start digging into there's just so much amazing work that's going on particularly in healthcare now of amazing operators amazing amazing technology amazing Founders teams clinicians operating Healthcare so it's really rewarding to see that and not to throw a wet blanket on all of that but from a company perspective at least on the sales side some of it is being able to filter through that to okay the flashy and sexy is great but healthc care is it just easy as amazing technology let's go get a bunch of users and that's fine right still fits in the confines of Legacy dated Tech Systems you kind of have that layer of insurance in the middle so it's it's a little bit easier said than done right so if you're looking for amazing Tech I would actually say you know what healthc care is amazing you'd be involved in health care but go to fintech go to something like you can impact healthc care from a other lens or way or you could stay in the there and guess what you're still potentially doing good for the world right but for me it was always finding you have a need nich of a called subject matter expert in healthcare and so for me it was joining an organization I didn't have like mental health as the top of mind but in the first part of my career I was involved with you know mental health right I sold a Pharma drug that was in um the mental health space some of the stuff with genetic testing I worked with site clinics in and out of the Southeast Mental Health Clinics and it was just a fascinating and much needed um area of focus that uh was was fascinating to me but also too was was really impactful and I saw and got to work with some of the clinicians on that side and so as I was kind of really getting down and naring down okay company agnostic what am I looking for I I just became you really fascinating with the space the technology uh kind of the blend of voice AI mental health and I do think it becomes a little bit easier of everybody's in healthcare because we want to help and I've seen first understand how the technology can help either a patient a clinician a provider even I mean it's crazy even in healthcare that's not like millions of dollars of Revenue right which it's there it's getting this set up at rule you know blood pressure cuff a remote monitoring Rural clinic in middle of nowhere Georgia right and seeing you know talking with the family seeing how it's going to impact the connection with the doctor and so it doesn't take much and I think that's the key with Healthcare is it can be so rewarding when you see all those things even just work it there and so um for me you kuki was a great opportunity of it fit all of my check boxes on where I wanted to be from a professional perspective and then as I started digging in it seemed to be you know mental health is top of mind for everybody because it's not just hey great we've cared for everybody's physical health you know covid and all these different areas realize that hey even value based care and all these different other modalities if we don't cover mental health costs are higher right we're not doing a great job job now and so but it also matters in terms of a financial policy uh so it hit on all of those but for me it was a a really cool opportunity to do something different in a different industry really fascinating Technologies because really what we've built at kugi and the team has built is fascinating technology that's able to take short clips of patient speech look at some very millisecond level some subtle changes this is the Amazing Power of AI looking at subtle changes in how we produce sound and speech and be able to correlate that with um depression anxiety right so we're able to take the speech the AI is looking at these millisecond level cues and we're really able to surface at scale understanding who might be high risk for depression uh what level of depression and anxiety they have um and so the real opportunity there though is to current state now is is one a lot of times it it isn't ask right or isn't ask till it's too late or you we're in this problem at the pur but even still like a gold standard right is uh you know these different questionnaires that have been around for 20 plus years that are not objective sometimes are time intensive and labor intensive so we're just now getting to the point where that's the gold standard and so it's almost a really cool opportunity to scale access to um starting the conversation around mental health way earlier stata by and then the tool is really cool because um Healthcare is very workflow intensive so the ideas that we've built um not to use a technical terminology but we built an API so we've built a tool that can kind of embed into what already exists in the call center in the virtual Care Center embedded into you know an app right so basically the value prop is and it resonates in health care is these conversations are happening today right in a lot of different areas how do we layer in a tool tool to have those samees conversations but maybe be able to surface more actionable information around mental health in real time and track how treatments are going over time but do it in a way that the IT team can say oh this is just a very easy plug-and play right we can do some stuff on the background it's frictionless patient experience member experience um so that's the opportunity right it is fundamentally a very Broad New Way novel is what it's called so this is a kind of it's not just saying hey Healthcare leader we have a better way to optimize we can use technology to optimize this process that you do right that's one thing or we have better Tech you're using this Tech we can make your Tech and it's going to make it more efficient there's a cost whatever but it already exists a lot of times um it can be an exciting conversation but sometimes difficult is we want you to not necessarily throw away these questionnaires but we want you to kind of do something that's completely different than what currently exist exist today right and there's no exact knowing how all this is going to fit but um we have to kind of you work together to figure out how this makes sense in workflows where are some of those workflows so it's fascinating it's very consultative but uh it's been really exciting to be involved in mental health technology Ai and so uh it's been a fun fun Journey so far but lots of lots of fun work to do it really sounds incredible it sounds very very interesting how far do you think it's going to go do you expect this kind of technology to be in every you know Health System yeah so our Focus now is to figure out kind of lay the foundation for what exists today where we can help out you know short term around some of those value chain areas that we did and then oh man my my brain never goes to what it could be you know one two years right but I think it it's riding a a a other uh fundamental area that mental health is going to matter it does matter and it's going to you know matter for a while in the context of we have to address it if we're going to keep people healthy have healthy transition to Value based care like value based care without this is just not going to be now whether cons sui does that alone chances are not right A lot of times if you think about the construct there's there's broader themes around access to care right so some of what I can't solve is wait times right but there are a lot of companies and innovations that are doing that um and so the opportunity is is as there's been significant progress for there um our main goal is where can we um where can we kind of integrate this very seamlessly make it a little bit of a light switch on or off to almost do it at enough scale where we start to really hone in on maybe it's maternal Health you know use case to start right where there's a there there's a serious issue with um postpartum depression so if we can plug it in there help out a certain area then we can kind of Define what that looks like um but the mental health you know 200 billion in just total cost I mean so the the cost is there the opportunity is is there but um it is kind of capturing and making sure that this is something that's frictionless seamless it adds value working with Partners uh both on the health system side but payer side other small digital Health companies we even work with International employers right everybody's kind of figuring out we're an interesting tool because it's not an app that the clinic downloads we don't have just you know this it is Broad which is great but really I think the next couple years the whole industry will be uh defining what might be a possible but B the actuality of it and then um you know really honing in on um making it a part of you know standardized workflow which voice voice is something that is becoming a little bit more standard of care you see all these AI scribe companies and people are comfortable with it that doesn't mean there's going to be some friction points but it really has an exciting like big picture opportunity of making all of this much more easy to do preventative type mental health Wellness to get folks into levels of care that start with before they get to a psychiatrist there's just so much great work and helping bridge that for certain msk or cancer provider so that's where I'm excited is is we can kind of um it is a tool of technology that can be scaled quickly right if you think about a call center if it's integrated right then these call centers are happening in entire organizations to the tune of you know hundreds of thousands of millions of patients members Etc um and so if this could just kind of you know help be a part of a broader tool to capture early get in chat Bots that that to me is the exciting portion of it is I get to work with cool obviously clients but also other cool innovators to be a very important small part of the overall treatment of uh you know risking stratify on the front end and then figuring out how this all fits in on the back end definitely I mean it sounds like an incredible role and an incredible organization and uh I think it's it's excellent that we met at that conference as well I think you showcased it uh we heard quite a bit about it at the conference and uh I think that it's an excellent opportunity for Health Systems to reduce costs and also offer much better care for mental health which is something that we're like you've said really struggling with um I don't want to take up too much of your time we're already a bit overtime here so I really appreciate you joining hopefully we'll be able to have you on again maybe with some other guests uh setting up a panel or whatnot in the future it' be excellent but I I could be more appreciative and thank you so much for coming on yeah I really appreciate the conversation and I always like to in typical sales fashion next steps but really have folks follow up with me you can find me on LinkedIn is where I'm probably most active I'll make sure that you have my email and my contact information and particularly in your guys' that work you know mha folks feel free reach out to me if nothing else um I can usually those conversations go uh amazing because it just kind of opens up a whole new world of you know startup and Venture Capital how all that happens in the digital health and um if I could even help one or two folks uh really look forward to it and excited to see the growth and success that you guys have had and really enjoyed the conversation I enjoyed it as well we're definitely going to be able to share that with our audience and I think they're going to really enjoy reaching out to you hopefully they won't flood your your email box too much it's all good man it's all good thanks</p>